When we went up to get our Christmas tree this year we saw this one on the side of the road. A local couple decorates one each year for the pleasure of passersby.
This tree is a nice contrast to the opinion voiced by of Peggy Noonan (Wall Street Journal, 12/19/09) that Americans are deteriorating in the way we treat one another:
I’d like to see a poll on this. Yes or no: Have we become a more vulgar country? Are we coarser than, say, 50 years ago? Do we talk more about sensitivity and treat others less sensitively? …. Is there less courtesy in America now than when you were a child, or more?
I think the popular culture is more vulgar than when I was a kid, but as far as how we treat one another I don’t think it has changed all that much. It depends on who you hang out with. I tend to avoid rude people as much as possible and hang out with the caring, considerate ones.
What do you think?
Yes, more vulgar, less courtesy. The sensitivity is the same, tho’ I didn’t run into a loud-mouthed one -on the bus, who made me the brunt of his joke. He laughed; I didn’t. I never met anyone like that “In the olden days”.
In Australia where I live: I think both more vulgar and more polite. Much more porn (internet and magazines) but women treated better in the workplace. More crassness in public discourse, less machismo in young males etc
.-= Evan´s last blog ..The Spirit at Christmas =-.
Rethinking this, we are certainly more vulgar. On The Doctors TV, was said that to shout the F— word to let off steam, is good for you.
In our little town everyone is very polite. I don’t know if on the streets of a city, people are polite to strangers. ???
Those questions are pretty hard to answer. When I was young I had experienced different levels of friendliness/rudeness depending on where in the US I lived. I can never become a teenager living in Pittsburg again, so it is hard to reproduce the situation. The Asian minorities I live with also experienced some nastiness, but sometimes in places where I was well treated.
The first real incidents of road rage I saw later in life, along with verbal abuses and threats related to parking lot activity more recently. There is nothing worse that a shopping mall fight a few days before Christmas.
bikehikebabe,
What exactly happened on the bus? It seems to me the “olden days” had plenty of loud mouths too.
Evan,
I agree, there’s definitely more swearing and emphasis on sex in public entertainment, but women and minorities are much better off. (Some women might disagree with that but as far as I know I don’t know any of them.)
There’s a TV program now called Mad Men, about people who work in advertising/Madison Avenue in the 1960’s. It’s astounding to see how women were treated then. I was alive during that period, but I had completely forgotten. There was also a lot of cigarette smoking. The change there has been a blessing for me, because second-hand cigarette smoke tends to make me physically ill.
Looney,
I’ve never seen road rage or fights in mall parking lots but we tend to avoid stores as much as possible between Thanksgiving and Christmas. Years ago we did see a fight on the Paris Metro one hot humid evening. It was clear the miserable weather was the main culprit. The two parties’ nerves were frayed.
bikehikebabe,
People in big cities are often in a hurry and don’t have much time for politeness. But that doesn’t apply to everyone. The Parisians were notorious for being unfriendly to strangers but we met some very helpful ones.
When B & I were out on Christmas day, we got onto a bus where there were alot of child-fare paying passengers who didn’t even offer either of us a seat. B looks much older than me as well. It was only a 10mins ride but we both shocked at the idea that even the parents of these kids didn’t suggest they give their seat to him or for that matter me.
I remember clearly even when I was a teenager, my Mother would make me get up and stand if someone older got on the bus. And the driver would get up and ask a 1/2-fare to stand. I wonder if it’s got so PC that drivers aren’t allowed to do that ‘now’ 🙂 I must ask my friend who runs the maxx-info office at my local bus station…
At University I see the attitude of these teens alot…some of the ethnic groups literally push their way forward although I have met some who have been very kind to me – holding the door open, moving up the rows or some such other thing. One even wanted to carry by books once!
Maybe the parents are all out in the workforce, instead of home when the kids come in from school so they learn only to ‘care about themselves’
.-= Cathy in NZ´s last blog ..Yah, it’s Boxing Day! Box on People 🙂 =-.
Life is very fast nowadays. I suppose people have less time for each other. Which is a sad state of affairs.
.-= gaelikaa´s last blog ..Giving =-.
Cathy,
When I taught Sunday school a few years ago I was surprised at how few of the kids knew how to say please and thank you. And many of them had stay-at-home moms. On the other hand, some of them were considerate. It clearly depends on the values of the parents.
gaelikaa,
I’m continually amazed at my daughter who has a high-pressure job, is working on an MBA and still devotes a lot of time to family. I don’t know how she does it…it makes me tired just thinking of it. I would be a basket case if I were foolish enough to try it. 🙂
She doesn’t have children, just a husband, two dogs and two cats, but they make a lot of trips from Illinois to Michigan to spend time with Torben’s family and they come here at least once a year. We also have long telephone conversations.
I’ve been thinking about the life is fast idea. Have you ever seen the movie Pather Panchali? It’s about a poor Bengali family and the pace is very slow. It also shows how mean-spirited poverty can make some people. It’s not an simple issue I think.
oh I forgot “please” and “thankyou” – that seems have to have flown as well. About the only time, I really hear it is when some folk get off the bus, even those by the back door mumble it. The driver would never hear – I usually just give him/her a little wave from the back door and a real thankyou if I exit via the front.
(sometimes, I do not say anything especially if they are especily grumpy or drive like lunatics. During the winter there was a driver who was all wrapped up to the nines who insisted on no heating just air-con!)
I even have a tendency to wave at the zebra/pedestrian crossing even though I have more rights there than the car!
What annoys me though is those cars that exit say a Mall carpark and clearly do not have any rights just where me the footpath (oops American sidewalk) is. I have been known to cut them off – or even make them back up!
I expect so much of the worlds’ friendliness has changed with the mobility of the peoples, other groups of people have such widely variances of customs. Sometimes, the newcaster will explain something that seems really odd but then it will always link to a group of people who do not share my particular values…I am starting to ‘look’ at my values and realise I do have a lot of quality ones; some are so personal that anyone coming to live here might bemused 🙂
.-= Cathy in NZ´s last blog ..Yah, it’s Boxing Day! Box on People 🙂 =-.
Hi Jean,
Interesting questions. Vulgarity – I don’t notice more now than “earlier”. What stands out for me is more entitlement issues with younger people (not all of course!) but it appears they want it all without having to EARN it. I just don’t remember that 50 years ago.
.-= suzen´s last blog ..Carrots, Eggs & Coffee Beans – A Recipe for Thought =-.
suzen,
Yes, the entitlement issue is a big one because before this recession people were more affluent and wanted their kids to have it all. At least some people are aware of the problem, I’ve read articles about the Gates and others struggling with how to instill good values, including a work ethic, in their kids.
We did our best to make sure Kaitlin wasn’t “under-deprived”, that she knew the joy of wanting something she could work for to attain. For me the waiting and saving were part of the pleasure.
Jean, I am not qualified to comment on your country. In mine, by and large, politeness, formality and courtesy are still very much in existence as I have often posted about in my blog. I do however see this eroding with different values and impatience creeping in, particularly in the crowded cities due to road rage, impatience, inefficiency etc. I am reasonably cocooned within my little world but when I overhear people on their mobile phones, which itself I consider impolite in public, I am often shocked at the words used. The price of progress? Exposure to information not quite of the right type? I do not know. I am just glad that I am not part of that.
.-= Rummuser´s last blog ..World Tour On Bicycle By Siddhartha Priya. =-.
Jean, I not so much “hang out” as just hang myself.
Like Ramana, I am not qualified to comment on the States (of affairs). The Santa Monica Americans and Canadians of my acquaintance read the New Yorker, eat thin cucumber sandwiches with abandon and are totally in awe of the British. They also visit all the cathedrals of this country and put me to shame with their knowledge.
Unlike Cathy’s experience ‘please’ and ‘thank you’ have not gone out of fashion in this country. In fact both are overused – therefore, to me, often being as meaningless as someone at the check-out saying “Have a nice day”. I always return the wish knowing full well that a day spent at the till can never be nice. Still, being friendly has never hurt anyone.
Like Cathy’s one of my pet hates is when people are not considerate to those who need comfort most, say on public transport. Only a couple of days ago I offered my seat to an elderly woman. Would she take it? Of course not. That’s the English for you: Too modest and self deprecating for their own good.
As to your question re vulgar: I most certainly swear in the privacy of my own four walls but wouldn’t do so when in company (other than my son’s and the cat’s both of whom observe the same delicacy).
Jean, the often praised bad old times. Who knows. It’s difficult to compare one epoch with the other. I’d rather people choke on their words then make them wash their mouths out with soap.
Do we treat each other with less sensitivity than in years gone by? I do not think so. Human interaction being entirely dependent on the individual’s temperament. Then and now.
U
When someone asks me a question, I tend to answer it. “How ya doin’.” Well, I just got a new part installed (hip) & that’s why I walk like a drunken sailor.”
On the bus the driver always asks. At first people said “GREAT!!!, then “Good”, later “o.k.”, now “I’m hangin’ in there.”
Rummuser,
I agree that talking on mobile phones in public places can be very annoying to other people. That has not been a plus.
On the other hand Indians weren’t universally courteous even in days gone by. Years ago when we were working at Cornell University I had trouble sleeping so I went into the computer room in the wee hours of the morning. I had a complicated problem to solve and decided I might as well work on it when things were quiet. Unfortunately about 5 or 6 a.m. a young Indian asked for help starting his car because his battery was dead. I wasn’t thrilled about having to go out into the -10 degree F. weather but could hardly say no. So I got out my jumper cables and flashlight (he didn’t have either) and we opened the hood of my car. He asked which terminal was the positive one. I said I didn’t know and he had the nerve to chew me out. “It’s your car. Why don’t you know?” I let him figure it out, we got his car started, and he left without even saying thank you. And, as I noticed a couple of days later, he took my flashlight with him.
He was so bad I still remember him 40 years later. 😉
Ursula,
I’m pondering your line, “Human interaction being entirely dependent on the individual’s temperament.” I think temperament has a lot to do with it, but I’m thinking of Deborah Tannen’s That’s Not What I Meant. She talks about how different conversational styles can mess up communication. She got the idea from a Thanksgiving dinner she attended once. As I recall (it’s been a long time since I read it) she noticed that some speakers were more energetic and even confrontational and had a great time interacting with one another. They can also come across as rude and insensitive to others who don’t share their style. So is that basic temperament if their style was highly influenced by the culture they were raised in?
Anthony Robbins said when he and his wife were first married they had huge fights until they realized he was raised in an Italian family where the rudest thing you could do when there was a disagreement was to walk away. You stayed connected even if the interaction became noisy. His wife, on the other hand, was taught it’s disrespectful to raise your voice to someone else. So if someone raised their voice to you the proper thing was to leave the room.
Figuring out their hidden rules made a huge difference in their relationship.
bikehikebabe,
The one we heard and use is, “Still sitting up and taking nourishment.” Always said cheerfully of course.
We still laugh about the time a checkout person in Santa Fe said to both of us, “Oh, you’re out and about today. How nice!” We couldn’t figure out if she was confusing us with another couple or if we looked so old to her (she was quite young) that she was amazed we were still staggering around. 🙂
Jean, you last comment about the young thing saying “Oh, you”ve out about and about today. How nice!”
reminds me last year this young thing at University saying to me quite innocently “Oh, I think it’s so kewl that you old people know how to text”
then the next day she noticed I was typing with all my fingers and she said “oh, how did you learn that at your age?”
she was pretty shocked when I told her that when was I was teen I learn to touch-type on a manual typewriter, with an ‘apron’ over the keyboard so I couldn’t see the keys! I then had explain what a manual typewriter was!!!
only one more sleep until I leave…I should be able to surf here to check out stuff though 🙂
.-= Cathy in NZ´s last blog ..Tuesday, Wednesday & Thursday =-.
Jean, yes, Italians (and I) know how to raise a few decibels. Though unlike your couple I rarely shout AT people I just shout.
As you say: Nature and nurture most certainly work hand in hand. I remember the first time the angel my son is (at about age 4) slammed a door in anger. Of course, if I’d done that in my day my parents would have banned me to my room and kept me on dry bread and water for at least an hour. Different scenario in this house: His slamming made me smile: Like mother like son. If I do it how can I expect him NOT to live up to my example?
By the way, he is the most laid back, calm and considerate person ever – according to your theory possibly nurtured by my style of mothering. Still that’s another subject – maybe to be covered on my new toy.
As an aside: You so remind me, by temperament, of one of my childhood friends (age 12/13). She was a vicar’s daughter (if you ever come back in another life try to avoid to do so as a vicar’s daughter: She hated him. Though she was very good at performing a christening service for one of my sister’s dolls.) She was quietly spoken, as I imagine you are. As was my wonderful Latin teacher. However, it’s the quiet and even tempered ones you want to beware. When they explode you don’t know what’s hit you. And – more to the point – you take their grievance seriously; far more so than that of people who habitually smoulder.
U
Jean, you must have met an ABCD! American Born Confused Desi. The Desi is Hindi for one who is of Indian origin. Have a bit of fun: http://www.theindiansabroad.com/2009/11/12-self-help-tips-on-improving-desi-english/
Ursula, I don’t want to come off as kowtowing (kiss-assing) but that was a “lovely”:( -comment. Rather is was fun & funny, informative, & I can’t think of a thing to add to that-except I like to shout too.
Cathy,
Thanks for sharing your stories. Have a great time!
Ursula,
About parenting, I think Myers-Briggs has it right. We’re all different and some parent-child combinations go more smoothly than others. Kaitlin gave me a hard time when she was a teen, but I never worried about her. I had read, and taken to heart, the idea that if kids do great in the outer world but act up at home it’s normal and can be healthy. If they act beautifully at home and act up outside of it there is real trouble.
She knew no matter what happened I would still love her, so it was safe. And we had been close when she was little and she had to break the bonds. it worked out fine. I stopped being a stay-at-home mom and was lucky enough to find the best job I ever had. I joked that I got a job so I could earn enough money to run away from home, but it changed the family dynamics and I didn’t need to. As soon as Kaitlin went away to college she felt more autonomous so things got even better.
Rummuser,
I enjoyed the article. Thanks. 🙂
A child psychologist I knew said that (in Myers-Briggs terms) most of her clients were intuitive-feeling children with sensate-judging parents. She usually handled this by explaining the parent to the child.
.-= Evan´s last blog ..The Spirit at Christmas =-.
Evan,
That makes a lot of sense to me.
Richard Bandler, one of the founders of NLP, once talked about the problems between engineers in Silicon Valley (California) and counselors. It was a hopeless match because the engineers would talk about their problems in visual terms while the counselors would ask them how they felt about that. The engineers left thinking counselors were absolutely useless while the counselors would say the engineers had too much resistance to do therapeutic work. Bandler was right on in his analysis. It was a great example of the importance of noticing if the person you’re talking to uses a visual, auditory or kinesthetic representation of the world. I read that years ago and it stuck with me. (Not that I use it very much myself. My husband, daughter and I are all visual thinkers, so it’s not a problem for us.)
There are engineering approaches to counselling – applications of systems theory such as Family Systems Theory for instance.
I do think communicating in each others’ modes (visual, auditory, kinaesthetic etc) is extremely helpful.
.-= Evan´s last blog ..The Spirit at Christmas =-.
Evan,
It makes a lot of sense to understand how different people look at the world and interact with it. What I like about Gendlin’s Focusing is that people learn to see for themselves what their minds are doing. They don’t just talk about their lives, they stop and look, listen or feel, depending on how their mind processes thoughts. Gendlin came up with his method when he was trying to understand why some therapists were more successful than others. He observed them and noticed it wasn’t the therapist, it was what the client was doing. The successful ones were actually stopping and noticing what was going on inside them. It pays to notice.
I think Gendlin’s focusing is really valuable.
.-= Evan´s last blog ..The Spirit at Christmas =-.
Gosh, Jean, that’s a difficult one you raised there with your last comment to Evan. Is it really up to the patient whether things go pear shaped or not between therapist and patient? I believe that, just like in any other human relationship, the rapport between both parties depends entirely on their chemistry. Sure, a good well trained counsellor might be able to employ all he/she has learned and TRY to keep detached. However, either the chemistry works or it doesn’t. And by god, beware of a therapist who takes a dislike to the person he/she is supposed to support.
On a slightly different slant, relating to the same subject and possibly of interest to you: A friend of mine categorically refused to attend a marriage counsellor with his wife because he felt that the counsellor would almost certainly not be as intelligent as he is. Which is an interesting take, and one I most certainly agree with in as much as you don’t want to hold the helper’s hand to wade through the mud of your life. It’s pot luck who you’ll find sitting on the other side of the desk. Mind you, and just to finish off the story, when he was on his second wife he gave marriage counselling a go (it was an emergency) and apparently it helped.
U
Ursula,
As I understand it the purpose of therapy is to show patients better ways of processing information, dealing with other people, etc. Rapport/good chemistry between patient and client is usually necessary. I mean how many of us would listen to someone who was arrogant, rude, etc.? Someone whom we feel is feeding his/her own ego rather than having our best interests at heart?
I’m no expert on therapy but I’ve heard if one counselor doesn’t work try another. Sometimes you have to try several before you find one that’s a good match.
The research usually suggests that it is the relationship that heals: that the school the therapist comes from doesn’t matter too much.
That therapy is still taught in terms of schools and such says much about how change (doesn’t) come. Cerebral understanding alone does not bring change even (or especially?) in academia.
.-= Evan´s last blog ..The Marrow in Me =-.
Evan,
Thanks. My interest has always been personal growth rather than therapy, but the basic principles are the same I think. The big step is for the person to take responsibility for his/her life. For me the second step was to make a commitment to myself that no matter what happened I wouldn’t beat myself up. I would be my biggest supporter and would try to bring out the best in myself. That’s the equivalent of having a good relationship with a therapist.
For me therapy and self-development are pretty much the same. The emphasis in therapy is on healing and the emphasis in self-development is learning and expression. But we go back and forth – discovering resources and limits in our past as we learn and grow.
For me they are part of the same process of authenticity – agency is central to any therapy or self-development worth the name in my, not so humble, opinion.
.-= Evan´s last blog ..The Marrow in Me =-.
Evan,
I don’t like the term therapy because it implies there is something wrong, something that needs to be healed. A rose doesn’t need to be healed before it can blossom from a bud.
Yes, but people usually work in the door because they are discontent. So ‘therapy’ makes sense to them.
.-= Evan´s last blog ..The Marrow in Me =-.
Evan,
I’m not objecting to other people using the term, I’m just saying that it didn’t work for me. One of the defining experiences of my life was when I cured myself of a dental phobia when I was 16. I knew I had to do something and found a book on self-hypnosis and did it. From then on I never felt stuck. If I had a problem I knew I had the power to figure it out. It was all part of growing.
I did a lot of inner work when I was in my mid-twenties…I didn’t read books on therapy, I read books on child development. I figured instead of blaming my parents/society/whatever for any problems I should decide what I would have been like if my upbringing had been “perfect”. So why not take responsibility for finishing my own upbringing? It was time for me to be a loving, guiding parent. That’s different from therapy I think.
Jean,
Since I wrote my musing last year about how present people celebrates the genuine spirit of Christmas, until now I still wonder.
I might agree with you “… It depends on who you hang out with…”
Happy New Year to you and family there, also to all readers. May God bless you with good health and happiness.
Tikno & Feli
.-= tikno´s last blog ..Gus Dur, I love you =-.
tikno,
Thank you! I hope you and your family have a wonderful 2010.
I believe it is indeed based on the fact that everything is becoming faster and faster. We are biologically unable to keep up with it, so our connections with experiences become weaker.
Ironically [almost humorous, but not quite], because of this increase in the speed of things we are becoming faster at recognizing problems outside of our own, yet we are increasingly less self-aware and thus not really sure of where what direction we are pointed, much less where to go.
At the lowest level, it is the inefficiency of communication due to a lack of true understanding of language. An idea pops into our heads and we want so badly to get our opinion out without thinking about what we are saying that we lose sight of what we are really trying to get across. This causes a breakdown of understanding, further weakening our ability to truly listen and connect with others.
When we truly understand our language and think about what it is we are really trying to say, arguments will become logical and on point, allowing all parties involves to gain better insight. Many ‘arguments’ nowadays go about like this:
Bob is trying to get Joe to see that apples taste the best. Joe disagrees, citing that oranges look the best. They can’t decide who is right so they asked Bill, who repeatedly states that peaches aren’t the fuzziest.
It’s almost madness the way people go about trying to get others to see their side of things, often without understanding their own point.
It appears to me that some/many of us in my generation (I’m 20 and haven’t met everyone in the world) don’t have the fortitude to think for ourselves and thus have a need to cling to someone else’ or to proclaim everyone else wrong. We are desperate to have others think as we do because we no longer have the ability to think for ourselves (or perhaps we were always weak as a whole in this manner and are simply more aware of it).
Please do not excuse my ramblings, because I most certainly do not. I will think thinks out more before posting again hahaha.
AJT
hahah, I was going to correct “think thinks out”… but I think Dr. Suess would be proud!
Andrew,
I don’t mind rambling. That’s sometimes how we figure out what we really think. I’m not sure people are that less self-aware now than in the past, I’ve known a lot of clueless people over the years. 😉 It’s completely understandable, our society has always valued action over thinking.